Follow-up to pers. relationship post
I got an email from a good friend (I have a personal relationship with him...LOL) about my post. It seems that blogger thought his comment was too long. I really don't get why some people have problems posting comments from time to time. Maybe it's because my blog is hosted with our website and not on blogger.com's servers. Sorry about that for those of you who have tried unsuccessfully to post something.
Anyway, his comment is good and I'd like to share it:
We all know how often it happens and it's painful to talk about. Possibly one of the greatest contributors is that in most churches the professional ministers bear the burden for discipling every person that walks into the church...hands down an impossible task. So what occurs is that new believers (and "old" as well) are discipled as much as they can be in a corporate setting. And being that this is extremely difficult to do...that is, to be discipled or to disciple in a large group setting...many believers fail to mature.
It can't go without saying that I acknowledge that my views here are most definitely, at least in part, influenced by my own personal experiences. I made some sort of decision to accept Christ when I was very young (another issue I'd love to discuss...don't think I'm bold enough to blog it though). I grew up in church...we went seemingly constantly. I was involved in the youth group...went on mission trips...went to camp, etc. In college I was part of Campus Crusade and/or Baptist Student Union...was even the Illinois BSU president one year. Went to seminary...worked in a few churches...served on mission in Chile and now in Poland. I've done a lot and have been "in the church" a long time. But I will just say that I have never experienced a biblical form of personal discipleship (wow is that a can of worms).
Let me develop that thought. Obviously there is precedent for group teaching in the Bible. It's called the NT church. Believers met together daily, studied Scripture, prayed. The apostles taught, both in person and through writings. But the model that Christ gave for discipleship went so much further...so much deeper. And while I don't know that we're called to round up a group of people and have them follow us around for 3 years, I do think that there is an ENORMOUS need to be personally, profoundly investing our lives into others on an individual level. It's way to easy for people to slip through the cracks. I did just that for many years.
Why does this speak to the topic of which phrase or word(s) we use when talking to people about salvation? Because it's the very heart of the conversation. For me (and I gladly write those two words) to use the word disciple with an non-believer can be powerful. It is indeed an unfamiliar word. But this carries with it the power of curiosity and mystery. While true that we are not disciples of hardly anything today, people are curious what would be so important to follow with our lives, to try to emulate.
Beyond the power of curiosity, I find that that word alone carries with it all of the context that I would need to add to the phrase "personal relationship". It carries with it the presupposition that there is more after the initial encounter. It also demands whole-hearted commitment...after all you in no way can call yourself a disciple if you are not consistently, continuously following. It's not a one-time thing.
Better close here as my posts have been growing in size lately. I don't want to lose any of you due to my droning! And I'm sure there are some holes here and there in my thoughts...this is of course a blog and not a book so I guess I'm entitled to a little leeway. This has been great for me. I said I'd like to talk about this and here we are...all of this today stems from comments from a friend in Estonia and another in Texas. So, I guess this is somewhat of a discussion...although I guess based on word count alone my voice is sort of drowning y'all out! Sorry!! :-)
Anyway, his comment is good and I'd like to share it:
good thoughts. The way i feel better about using "personal relationship" with new or prospective believers--is by saying "you are now to/you are establishing a personal relationship with God."I like the thought of "now establishing a pr with God" along with the recognition that something else should naturally follow. My beef, though, is not this type of usage because if truly explained in this way it does show the biblical reality. But when the expectation for growth is not given...when that expectation is not expected...then that is a problem.
That helps me.
With the phrase "disciple of Jesus Christ." Obviously, a great phrase. Only problem for me, we aren't disciples of much. Although a biblical word, i feel that word does not translate well into modernity. Rarely, if ever, do i use disciple to describe anything outside of Christianity. So, i suggest brain storming another word that infers the same thing. You're smart, i put you in charge of it.
We all know how often it happens and it's painful to talk about. Possibly one of the greatest contributors is that in most churches the professional ministers bear the burden for discipling every person that walks into the church...hands down an impossible task. So what occurs is that new believers (and "old" as well) are discipled as much as they can be in a corporate setting. And being that this is extremely difficult to do...that is, to be discipled or to disciple in a large group setting...many believers fail to mature.
It can't go without saying that I acknowledge that my views here are most definitely, at least in part, influenced by my own personal experiences. I made some sort of decision to accept Christ when I was very young (another issue I'd love to discuss...don't think I'm bold enough to blog it though). I grew up in church...we went seemingly constantly. I was involved in the youth group...went on mission trips...went to camp, etc. In college I was part of Campus Crusade and/or Baptist Student Union...was even the Illinois BSU president one year. Went to seminary...worked in a few churches...served on mission in Chile and now in Poland. I've done a lot and have been "in the church" a long time. But I will just say that I have never experienced a biblical form of personal discipleship (wow is that a can of worms).
Let me develop that thought. Obviously there is precedent for group teaching in the Bible. It's called the NT church. Believers met together daily, studied Scripture, prayed. The apostles taught, both in person and through writings. But the model that Christ gave for discipleship went so much further...so much deeper. And while I don't know that we're called to round up a group of people and have them follow us around for 3 years, I do think that there is an ENORMOUS need to be personally, profoundly investing our lives into others on an individual level. It's way to easy for people to slip through the cracks. I did just that for many years.
Why does this speak to the topic of which phrase or word(s) we use when talking to people about salvation? Because it's the very heart of the conversation. For me (and I gladly write those two words) to use the word disciple with an non-believer can be powerful. It is indeed an unfamiliar word. But this carries with it the power of curiosity and mystery. While true that we are not disciples of hardly anything today, people are curious what would be so important to follow with our lives, to try to emulate.
Beyond the power of curiosity, I find that that word alone carries with it all of the context that I would need to add to the phrase "personal relationship". It carries with it the presupposition that there is more after the initial encounter. It also demands whole-hearted commitment...after all you in no way can call yourself a disciple if you are not consistently, continuously following. It's not a one-time thing.
Better close here as my posts have been growing in size lately. I don't want to lose any of you due to my droning! And I'm sure there are some holes here and there in my thoughts...this is of course a blog and not a book so I guess I'm entitled to a little leeway. This has been great for me. I said I'd like to talk about this and here we are...all of this today stems from comments from a friend in Estonia and another in Texas. So, I guess this is somewhat of a discussion...although I guess based on word count alone my voice is sort of drowning y'all out! Sorry!! :-)
posted by Michael Shattuck at
12:44 AM
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